where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Was Lee Harvey Oswald the lone gun man or a patsy to cover up the real truth?

where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Postby pio » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:43 pm

oswald was filling orders and was on the 6th floor at about 11.40 some of his co workers were up there laying a plywood floor . when the floor laying staff and oswalds supervisor decided to break for lunch it was about 11.40 ,the men laying the floor got in to the nearby elevator and they heard oswald shout send the elevator back up . these elevators had a gate and if the gate was open or up the elevator wouldnt move when called ,so in essence oswald wanted his co workers to close the gate and send the elevator back up .

now some people and some authors such as gerald posner opine that at this stage oswald constructed the snipers nest and assembled his rifle and lay in wait for jfk and never leaving the 6th floor ,this is completely untrue . a few minutes after oswald shouted for the elevator to be sent back up he was seen on the first floor ,he was seen by his supervisor bill shell at about 11.50
Mr. Ball.
On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?
Mr. Shelley.
No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.
Mr. Ball.
Did you see him from time to time during that day?
Mr. Shelley.
I am sure I did. I do remember seeing him when I came down to. eat lunch about 10 to 12.

eddie piper not only saw osald but spoke to him
Mr. Ball.
Was that the last time you saw him?
Mr. Piper.
Just at 12 o'clock.
Mr. Ball.
Where were you at 12 o'clock?
Mr. Piper.
Down on the first floor.
Mr. Ball.
What was he doing?
Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him---"It's about lunch time. I believe I'll go have lunch." So, he says, "Yeah"---he mumbled something---I don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so I got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor.

charles givens saw oswald reading the paper
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Re: where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Postby pio » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:14 pm

so now we see the truth put to the lies and that oswald did indeed leave the 6th floor and was still on the 1st floor at midday . of course oswald could have gone upstairs after midday couldnt he ? , its possible certainly but this presents another problem .the problem is bonny ray williams ,bonny ray williams was on the 6th floor from about midday untill some time around 12.20 or a few minutes later ,some people opine williams left the 6th floor as early as 12.10 we will see later this is not the case .

if oswald comes up to the 6th floor a little after midday the problem he has is that williams was sat eating his lunch no more than 12 feet from the snipers nest ,he was so close to the snipers nest that when the police found his lunch sack they mistakenly thought the sniper had cold bloodely sat there eating chicken while waiting to kill jfk ,but in reality the chicken was williams lunch . so now oswald has to get into the snipers nest and move atleast 4 large boxes and assemble his broken down carcano which tests show takes atleast 6 minutes and he must do all this with williams sat a few feet away ,williams never sees or hears oswald doing all this just a few feet away .

now oswald was seen by another witness at about 12.15 give or take a few minutes this was carolyn arnold ,author gerald posner in case closed says arnold said she didnt see oswald and a lot of people repeat this inaccurate statment . posner omits some very important info (which he does quite a lot ) the fbi were told to only ask the depository workers a very specific question "did you see oswald at the time of the shots " of course this would be 12.30 . carolyn arnold did not see oswald at 12.30 because she was outside the building ,so she truthfully answered the question and said no i didnt see oswald ,posner skillfully uses this to falsely assert that arnold never saw oswald but we know she did see him earlier about 12.15 .

"As for Carolyn Arnold's testimony, for starters, Mrs. Arnold, as Posner should know, NEVER told the FBI that she didn't see Oswald at all that day. What she said was that she did not see him AT THE TIME OF THE ASSASSINATION. British journalist and author Anthony Summers provides the following summary of his 1978 interview with Mrs. Arnold:

When I found Mrs. Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that she had been misquoted, came BEFORE I explained to her the importance of Oswald's whereabouts at given moments. Mrs. Arnold's recollection of what she really observed was clear--spotting Oswald was after all her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice- president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment . . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water. (14:77)
Four other women worked with Mrs. Arnold and watched the motorcade with her that day. "They," claims Posner, "support her original statements and not the story she told fifteen years later" (6:227). Yet Posner only provides testimony from two of the four women, continuing, "Virgie Rachley and Betty Dragoo accompanied her when she left the second floor" and they "did not see Oswald" (6:227). But they did not go into the lunchroom with Mrs. Arnold when she stopped off to get a glass of water."

so now we have oswald still on a lower floor as late as 12.15 ,did he sneak up to the 6th floor after midday and construct the snipers nest and assemble his rifle feet from williams who is sat eating his lunch,and then sneak back down for a sandwich in time to be seen at 12.15 ? this is highly unlikely . so we have to assume if oswald is the shooter that he couldnt have gone up to the 6th before 12.15 ,but that still gives oswald time to get up there and kill jfk doesnt it?.
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Re: where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Postby pio » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:48 pm

if oswald only gets to the 6th floor at 12.15 or a little later he has to assemble his rifle that takes a minimal 6 minutes and he has to move atleast 4 boxes into place inside the snipers nest , so this means the rifle cant be assembled untill after 12.20 . arnold rowland was down on the street waiting to see jfk and he looked at his watch it said 12.14 he also noticed the hertz clock on top of the book depository and it said 12.15 ,at this time he notices a man in a window with a rifle . just to clarify the snipers nest window was on the south east corner of the building and the man rowland saw was in a window on the south west side of the building .rowland was with his wife they had positioned themselves to see jfk but were not happy so they changed position only to return to their original position.
Mr. SPECTER - What time would you say you got back to your position "V"?
Mr. ROWLAND - We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.
Mr. SPECTER - Where was the Hertz time clock located?
Mr. ROWLAND - That was on top of the school depository building.
Mr. SPECTER - Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.

Mr. ROWLAND - This was 12:15.
Mr. SPECTER - All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time?
Mr. ROWLAND - We were discussing, as I stated, the different security precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window.
He was standing and holding a rifle, This appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent.
We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this man?
Mr. ROWLAND - This was very odd. There were this picture was not taken immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window.
Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.
It was this pair of windows here at that time.
Mr. SPECTER - All right.


Mr. SPECTER - Could you give us an estimate on his height?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective.
Mr. SPECTER - Was he a white man or a Negro or what?
Mr. ROWLAND - Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair.

Mr. SPECTER - What race was he then?
Mr. ROWLAND - I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.
Mr. SPECTER - And were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; except that it was dark, probably black.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?
Mr. ROWLAND - It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.

rowland having seen the man in the south west window with a rifle had told his wife what he saw they had a converstaion about this lasting 5 minutes or so while rowland periodicly looked back at the windows.
Mr. ROWLAND - About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again looked at my watch.
Representative FORD - After you and your wife looked up and saw that there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; I did, constantly.
Representative FORD - And as you looked at the window subsequently did you ever see anything else in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; not in that window, and I looked back every few seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so I could point him out to my wife.
Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time.
Representative FORD - At what time was that?
Mr. ROWLAND - At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.
Representative FORD - Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from.
Representative FORD - I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?
Mr. ROWLAND - The west, southwest corner.
Representative FORD - And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?
Mr. ROWLAND - The east, southeast corner.
Representative FORD - Southeast corner. On the same floor?
Mr. ROWLAND - On the same floor.
Representative FORD - When did you notice him?
Mr. ROWLAND - This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.
Representative FORD - I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows I think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and then I saw the man with the rifle.

now rowland mentions the negro who he saw hanging out of the snipers nest window
Mr. SPECTER - Will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like?
Mr. ROWLAND - It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I didn't pay very much attention to him.
Mr. SPECTER - At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; no one else on that floor.

so now we have a man with a rifle in a south west window with a rifle on the 6th floor about 12.14-12.15 at a time when when carolyn arnold says oswald was on a lower floor eating lunch but she also said the time could have been a few minutes later ,and we have a negro who looked elderly leaning out the southeast window on the 6th floor at the same time (this is the snipers nest window ) ,now this elderly negro cant be williams as he was a young enough man but williams was on the 6th floor at this time which again begs the question how does he not see or hear the man with the rifle ?. williams made no mention of leaning out the snipers nest window but lets say for argument sake rowland was wrong about the negro being elderly and lets say williams did lean out the snipers nest window but he didnt want to say he was in there so he wouldnt get into trouble ,if the man rowland saw was williams and he was in the snipers nest looking out the open window then oswald cant have been hiding in there assembling his rifle because williams would have seen him .
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Re: where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Postby pio » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:59 pm

this raises another problem if oswald was on a lower floor eating lunch untill atleast 12.15 he could only assemble his rifle after this time and this takes atleast 6 minutes ,so oswald cant be seen with an assembled rifle untill atleast 12.20 but rowland saw the man in the southwest window at 12.14-to 12.15 with an assembled rifle .another issue arises here also and that is that jfk ran late that afternoon he arrived on elm at 12.30 but he should have been passing there atleast 5 minutes before hand at about 12.25 and then arriving at the trade mart at 12.30 ,if oswald is still assembling his rifle and moving boxes 6 or 7 minutes after 12.15 he is cutting it pretty fine as he would think jfk was arriving at 12.25 not 12.30 .
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Re: where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Postby pio » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:36 pm

so who was the negro (who rowland said was elderly )in the snipers nest window seen by rowland ? there was an elderly negro who worked in the building his name was charles givens and he fits the description quite well . givens told the fbi that at lunchtime on november 22 he saw oswald on the 1st floor reading a news paper at about 11.50 (see post number 1 above),but givens changed his story ,he later denied to the warren commission that he made any such statment
Mr. BELIN. Did you see Lee Oswald anywhere else in the building between 11:55 and the time you left the building?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. On November 22d?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him in the domino room at all around anywhere between 11:30 and 12 or 12:30?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see him reading the newspaper?
Mr. GIVENS. No; not that day. .... I didn't see him in the domino room that morning.

Mr. BELIN. Did you ever tell anyone that you saw Lee Oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room around 11:50, 10 minutes to 12 on that morning on November 22d?
Mr. GIVENS. No, sir.

the commission never questioned givens any further on this testimony which is incredible considering they had the fbi statment ,but none the less we can see from givens fbi statment this is a lie .here it is again with the relevant section underlined in red
Image

givens told the commission he had come down stairs for lunch with the other men at about 11.40 (oswald was still on the 6th floor ) a few minutes later givens said he realised he left his cigarettes in his coat pocket up on the 6th floor and so returned to the 6th floor to get them . when he got there he said he saw oswald walking towards him clipboard in hand having come from the area of the so called snipers nest ,he said the time was 11.55 (strangely he mentioned absolutely nothing about the cigarettes in his fbi statment ) . now givens contradicted himself here because he told the fbi he saw oswald reading a paper on the 1st floor about this time ,also its physicly impossible for oswald to have been on the 6th floor as he was without doubt on the 1st floor because he was seen by his supervisor bill shelly and he was seen and spoken to about midday by eddie piper .

so givens lied to the commission and commited perjury but why ? .they say every lie is 90% truth so lets for a moment speculate ,givens and his co workers come down to lunch a little early at about 11.40 and oswald says send the elevator back up ,oswald then comes down to the 1st floor for lunch seen by shelly /givens and piper .givens walked around on the 1st floor untill about midday he is about to go outside for a bit but realises he left his cigarettes up on the 6th floor and goes up there . who does he bump into ? bonny ray williams who has just sat down to eat his chicken lunch ,he stays and has a chat with bonny ray . while up on the 6th floor with bonny ray charles givens goes to the nearby open window (which would be the snipers nest window ) and leans out to have a look outside ,this is when rowland sees him at about 12.15 ,shortly after this givens goes down stairs and leaves the building . bonny ray would leave a few minutes later joining jarmin and norman on the 5th floor at about 12.25 ,but ill go into this a bit later .

so what happens then ? jfk is shot from that very window (so we were told ) givens who had a police record realises he was up there and his prints were all over the snipers
nest window and that maybe he was seen looking out the window ,so he tells the police and fbi that he was on the 1st floor where he saw oswald reading a paper ,and that he left at midday . givens is questioned a few times more and continues to say different things untill finally he puts oswald on the 6th floor at a time we know oswald cant have possibly been up there . my scenario contains that which we know is fact / what charles given said in a statment that he did that afternoon and speculation on my part which i beleive fits in with rowlands sighting of the elderly negro in the snipers nest about 12.15 ,ill have to let the readers consider if my scenario has any merit .

so what of williams ,he never mentioned looking out the snipers nest window and williams all tho a negro was not elderly as givens surely was . some people and some authors like posner say williams left the 6th floor as early as 12.05 and this is patently false , williams himself said he could have left the 6th floor at a time approaching 12.20 .
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.

mr ball questions wiliams further about the time he left the 6th floor and took the elevator down to the 5th floor to jarmin and norman
Mr. BALL. You had known them before?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, do you know what time that was?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not know the exact time.
Mr. BALL. It was--
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
so we see the people and authors like posner who say williams left the 6th floor at 1.05 are 100% wrong , williams all tho he couldnt say an exact time that he met jarmin and norman on the 5th floor he estimated 12.20 ,this is a reasonable estimate but it was probably a few minutes later as we will see from jarmin and norman etc ,move forward now to post number 7 (thats two posts along ) and ill discuss the time williams arrived on the 5th floor .
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Re: where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Postby pio » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:59 pm

THE CURIOUS TESTIMONY OF MR. GIVENS
by: Sylvia Meagher

One witness who helped to incriminate Lee Harvey Oswald in the assassination
of President John
F. Kennedy was a Book Depository porter named Charles Givens. The Warren
Commission gave
prominence to his testimony that he had forgotten his cigarettes on the
sixth floor and that
when he went to retrieve them just before noon he had encountered Oswald
near the southeast
corner window.

In a book published in 1967 (Accessories After the Fact, Bobbs-Merrill Co.,
Inc.), I discussed
the discrepancies between the Givens story as set forth in the Warren Report
and the
corresponding testimony and exhibits, and the grounds for concluding that
the story suggested
perjury and collusion. It was logically inconsistent with genuine encounter
at about 11:45
between Oswald and a group of employees who were racing two elevators from
the sixth to the
ground floor, when Oswald had called to them to send one elevator back so
that he could go down
too. Ten minutes later, if one accepted Given's testimony, Oswald declined
to go down for the
lunch break. Moreover, while Givens supposedly exchanged a few words with
Oswald on the sixth
floor, other witnesses observed him on the first floor. Most of all,
Givens' testimony was
suspect because in his affidavit to the Dallas police later that afternoon
he said nothing about
forgetting his cigarettes, returning to the sixth floor, or meeting Oswald
there - an omission
that was incomprehensible, if the encounter was authentic.

That is how the situation appeared back in 1967. Some months ago, I
obtained from the National
Archives a collection of unpublished Warren Commission documents ("CD's")
concerning Charles
Givens. Reading them was a shock not soon forgotten. I had half-expected
that the CD's would
reconcile and dispose of the contradictions that earlier had forced me to
question the
legitimacy of the Givens testimony and the role of the two or more Warren
Commission lawyers in
extracting that testimony.

Here is a chronological reconstruction of the Givens affair from which
anyone easily can judge
for himself whether or not there are sufficient grounds for an accusation of
perjury, collusion,
and falsification of evidence with the clear purpose of incriminating Oswald
as the assassin of
President Kennedy. (The citations in each case refer to both published
transcripts and exhibits
and to unpublished commission documents or internal reports and papers.)

November 22, 1963
At 1:46 p.m. Inspector Sawyer of the Dallas police issued an alert on the
police radio for
Charles Givens, a porter at the Book Depository, because he had "a police
record and he left"
(CE 705, page 30). It was know at that hour that Oswald, too, had left the
scene but no alert
for him was issued - Captain Will Fritz and two detectives intended to
proceed to Irving
personally, in search of Oswald.

Within an hour or two, Givens was escorted to the police headquarters, where
he was questioned
and where he executed an affidavit stating that he had left the sixth floor
at about 11:30 a.m.,
had gone to the washroom, at noon had taken his lunch period, had gone to a
parking lot to visit
with a friend employed there (CE 2003, page 27). Givens' affidavit said
nothing about a return
to the sixth floor for cigarettes or an encounter there with Oswald.

Later that day Givens was interviewed by FBI agents Griffen and Odum. He
gave the same story as
in the affidavit but added one additional piece if information - THAT AT
11:50 a.m. HE HAD SEEN
OSWALD READING A PAPER IN THE "DOMINO ROOM" ON THE FIRST FLOOR (CD 5, PAGE
329).

you can read more of the above article on givens and his changing story here
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Jfk-cons ... vens63.txt
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Re: where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Postby pio » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:41 pm

as we saw from williams own testimony he said he left the 6th floor and went down to the 5th floor and he estimated he arrived there about 12.20 . now he was only one floor up and he took the elevator down this probably wouldnt have taken any more than 80 seconds (1 minute and 20 seconds ) that means if his 12.20 time is accurate (and its reasonably accurate ) he left the 6th floor at about 12.18 and 40 seconds ,so much for posner saying he left as early as 12.05 .

so is williams correct in saying 12.20 ,well he is reasonably accurate for sure but lets see if we can get nearer to the correct time . jarmin said he stood outside the building with norman and arce where they waited to see jfk
Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west.
Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb?
Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

then jarmin and norman left the front of the building on elm street
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs?
Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator.
Mr. BALL - Which elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator.
Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth?
Mr. JARMAN - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank.
Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows.
Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one.
Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL - Who joined you?
Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams.

what does norman say happened ? pretty much what jarmin said that he was out side waiting for jfk but then decided to go back into the building ,but he also says something very important see the highlighted section of his testimony below
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?
Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator is the one you use the push button on?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; the one you pull the gate.
Mr. BALL. That is right. It is a push button elevator.
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you went up to the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Fifth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the fifth floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, I fill quite a few orders from the fifth floor and I figured I could get, you know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from the fifth floor because I was more familiar with that floor.
Mr. BALL. And what did you and Junior do after you got off the elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. We walked around to the windows facing Elm Street and I can't recall if any were open or not but I remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there?
Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.
Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade came by?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.

Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main
the above is in refference to a message that came over the police radio ,i believe it was the radio on a policemans motorcycle letting the officers on houston and elm street know that jfk was on main street and getting near houston and elm . this is corroberated so this is a real message that came over the police radio and was heard by onlookers harold norman and even howward brennnan but what time was the message broadcast ? . brennan was walking to the corner of elm and houston street to the spot where he would be filmed sitting on the wall by mr zapruder ,brennan said

"I remembered that the Presidential motorcade would be turning off Houston onto Elm, and that there was a wall about four feet high in Dealy [sic] Plaza that would give me an excellent view. If I could get a seat on the wall, I’d have a panoramic view of the whole area. I finished my lunch and walked out of the cafeteria to be greeted by a bright sun that had come out just in time for the parade. I thought, “That’s a good sign!” I looked at my watch which indicated 12:18. By now I could hear as well as sense the excitement in the air."howard brennan

he then walks to the corner of elm and houston and when he arrives he sees a man who had collapsed with an epileptic fit ,so how accurate is brennans watch ? lets see here is a section of the transcript of the police radio calls at that time
Disp 12:18. (note the time )
289 289 . . .
Disp 289.
289 Give us an ambulance, 100 block North Houston Street. Epileptic seizure.
so the call went out at 12.18 brennan arrives a few minutes after so his watch is pretty accurate .

"As I reached Dealy Plaza, I saw a crowd gathered around a man on the ground who had apparently fainted. I asked the first man whose attention I could get, “Do you know what happened to him?” He shook his head and said, “I can’t tell you, I just got here myself.” Someone said they thought he had had an epileptic seizure. Maybe the excitement had been just too much for him." howard brennan

so what happens next ?brennan like all the other people heard that jfk was on main st and fast approaching and he noted the time on his watch once again

"As each minute passed the crowd grew more and more excited and I could feel this along with everyone else. It was a tingling sensation, a kind of mass intoxication that everyone was getting caught up in. At about 12:26 the word spread that the Presidential motorcade was approaching and it would be only a few minutes until it came into view." howard brennan

so again brennans watch seems ver accurate and his 12.26 time is about the same time jarmin says he and norman went in to the building ,jarmin said between 12.20 and 12.25 but its my guess norman and jarmin heard the news a minute or so before it got to brennan .so about 12.24 seems a pretty accurate time for norman to hear the message on the police radio ,himself anf jarmin leave the front of the building and make their way around the back of the building and go up to the 5th floor where they probably arrive about 2 minutes later at about 12.26 . now williams joins them at this time and as norman said he was there a few minutes before jfk arrived
Mr. BALL. Did somebody join you there?
Mr. NORMAN. Bonnie Ray, I can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. I know he was with us a period of time later.
Mr. BALL. And then did he come down before the President's motorcade came by?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by.

so i think with the testimony and evidence that we have its very reasonable to williams arrived on the 5th floor no earlier than 12.25 but more likely around 12.26 ,he was only one floor up and he took the elevator down this surely )wouldnt have taken any more than about 80 seconds (1 minute and 20 seconds) this means williams left the 6th floor as late as 12.24 and 40 seconds . williams was on the 6th floor all this time yet he never saw or heard lee harvey oswald move boxes or assemble his rifle ,add to that he never saw the man with the rifle in the south west window .if that man is oswald who according to the commision is hiding in the snipers nest that means oswald had to walk out of the snipers and walk to the southwest window unseen and unheard by williams .of course williams made no mention of anyone leaning out the snipers nest window (the elderly negro ? ) how could williams not see or hear that man .perhaps rowland got it wrong and the man he saw was a younger negro if thats the case the man can only be williams as he was (supposedly) the only negro up on the 6th floor ,if it was williams then he knew oswald wasnt hiding in the snipers nest as the warren commission said .

one final thing here on williams and brennan ,it seems certain that williams was on the 6th floor till 12.24 and some odd seconds now brennan whos watch was as weve seen pretty accurate stated
"I had thought all the windows in the Texas Book Depository were occupied, but as I looked closer, those occupied seemed to be confined to the lower floors. As I worked my gaze upward, I was struck by the fact that one floor, the one next to the top, seemed to be completely empty. I didn’t think much about it as I reasoned everyone would want to get on as low a floor as possible for the best view. Then, looking at the corner of the building, I noticed one man in the window. What drew my attention to him with all of the other people in the area, I don’t know. I looked at my watch and it was about 12:22. As I watched him, he went away from the window for a few seconds and then returned. I thought perhaps he was doing a special job and had just broken away from it for a moment to see what was happening outside."
howard brennan

brennan noticed this man at 12.22 and he was moving around (there was only a ply wood floor below that man ) so the man had been at the southwest window at about 12.15 he then makes his way back to the snipers nest window which is south east where brennan sees him at 12.22 ,once williams is there at this time ho does he not hear the man walk from the sout west window to the southeast window ? how does he not see this man ? how does he not hear the man moving feet aay from him as seen by brennan ? this beggers belief .
"Truth will rise above falsehood as oil above water." Miguel de Cervantes
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Re: where was oswald between 11.40am and 12.30pm

Postby pio » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:58 am

the final piece of the story is at 12.30 the time of the shots .the warren commission performed time trials to find out how long it would take oswald to get from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor lunchroom the times established were 74 ssconds and 78 seconds . both time trials erred on the side of getting oswald down as fast as possible ,for instance howard brennan said the sniper paused as if to admire his work well the time trial allowed for no pause ,also luke mooney who found the snipers nest said it was a tight squeeze getting in there so the opposite would apply to oswald if he was the sniper meaning it was also a tight squeeze to get out which would have taken a further few seconds .time was not allowed for either of these things ,even if both took as little as 6 or 7 seconds this time must be added on in order to get the most accurate time possible .further to that we know the rifle was hidden (it was also covered with paper ) this takes a minimal amount of time and again this was also not allowed for by the warren commission ,i would say 10 seconds for this is not unreasonable . this means you have to add some 16 to 17 seconds to the 74 seconds time (which is the quicker of the two ) which makes about 90 seconds minimal assuming he wasnt delayed by anything else like not moving the boxes in the snipers nest window (see the warren commission vollumes ) .

now im not going into whether oswald could make the second floor before baker gets there all tho baker is mentioned , in the time trials it took about 8 seconds to travel down each floor and 4 floors were covered so thats 32 seconds to reach the 2nd floor lunchroom door . even taking the commissions quickest time of 74 seconds this means oswald cant leave the 6th floor and enter the stairs in under 42 seconds .

there were 3 ladies on the 4th floor victoria adams /sandra styles and a third lady dorothy garner ,approximately 30 seconds after the last shot the 3 women were on the 4th floor landing near the stairs at which time adams and styles ran down the stairs but garner stayed on the landing . now oswald cant have left the 6th floor (using the commissions own time trial) untill 42 seconds after the last shot ,he then has to make his way down each stair and across each landing which took the commision about 8 seconds per floor . oswald had to cross the 4th floor landing and enter the 3rd floor stairs so to do this we have to add 16 seconds to the 42 (8 seconds per floor ) which means oswald can only be entering the 3rd floor stairs about 58 seconds after the last shot . this is where the commission runs into problems .

adams and styles go down the stairs approximately 30 seconds after the last shot is fired ,if oswald doesnt reach that point untill 58 seconds after the last shot its reasonable to say oswald can not have gone down the 3rd floor stairs before styles and adams .and of course they said they never saw or heard oswald which they couldnt have if they are accurate . so we are left with dorothy garner stood on the 4th floor landing 30 seconds after the last shot and who continued to stand there atlaest untill officer baker and roy trully emerge from the 3rd floor stairs on to the 4th floor landing ,garner never saw oswald as she would have to have done if he crossed the 4th floor landing at about 58 seconds after the last shot . but she couldnt see oswald cross the 4th floor landing because baker had stopped him some 20 seconds before he emerged from the 3rd floor stairs (remember 8 seconds per floor x two floors = 16 seconds plus the few seconds when he had stopped oswald in the lunchroom ) ,the only reasonable explanations are that these 3 ladies were wrong or that the reason they never saw oswald was that he was never up on the 6th floor at all .

Image

here is an interesting link to a thread which discusses adams /styles /garner and how oswald could get down stairs unseen and unheard .
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/in ... 427.0.html

here is a link about victoria adams
http://www.ctka.net/reviews/accidental_history.html
"Truth will rise above falsehood as oil above water." Miguel de Cervantes
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